Friday, October 14, 2005
The depth of German anti-Americanism
Most Americans fail to grasp how deep anti-Americanism now runs in Europe and how the slow response to Katrina - and the poverty it exposed - could trigger almost fanatical anti-American sentiment in Europe.
In Britain, an opinion columnist in The Guardian encouraged his readers to withhold hurricane aid: "America needs [political] change not charity." In Germany, it was worse. Columnist Philipp Mausshardt of the German Tageszeitung felt "joy" that Katrina "hit the richest country in the world" and "would be even happier to know that it destroyed the homes of Bush supporters and members of the military." Andreas Renner, a German state minister (of the conservative party, typically more sympathetic to the Bush administration), claimed that "Bush should be shot" for his delayed response to Katrina victims. German Environmental Minister Jürgin Trittin suggested that Katrina was America's due retribution for not signing Kyoto.
Never feel badly when the twentieth century's most violent society pretends to moral superiority. But do get worried when German elected officials suggest that somebody should "be shot."
15 Comments:
By 
Purple Avenger, at
Fri Oct 14, 01:32:00 AM:
...opinion columnist in The Guardian...
Not suprising really. The Guardian is redder than Chairman Mao.
By Dan Kauffman, at
Fri Oct 14, 01:52:00 AM:
Be nice to ask him what should have been done to the politicians of the EU for their handling of the heat wave a couple of years ago?
7K dead in Germany and about 15K in France, somewhere around 35K overall for Europe.
By 
, at
Fri Oct 14, 05:47:00 AM:
"Never feel badly when the twentieth century's most violent society pretends to moral superiority."
Thank you so much for reminding us about the Nazis and for making judgements about our entire society (80 million folks) by drawing conclusions from the statements of three individuals. Shall I quote two unimportant US politicians and a crazy US columnist and then make judgements about your society?
Are you aware of Germany’s assistance after Katrina hit?
http://atlanticreview.org/archives/134-German-relief-experts-at-work-in-New-Orleans.html
By TigerHawk, at
Fri Oct 14, 06:48:00 AM:
If it were only the comments of three individuals, Jorg, we needn't be worried. But it seems to me that Gerhard Schroeder owed his last three years in office (at least) to pandering to anti-Americanism in the German electorate. I think it runs more deeply than you suggest. Indeed, the linked article documents much more anti-Americanism in Germany than the isolated examples you suggest.
German aid to help the Gulf coast was much appreciated, but it does not prove the absence of moral condescension. But many deeply anti-American countries sent aid, or at least tried to, in part to prove their moral superiority. Iran, Cuba and Venezuela all sent aid, or tried, to.
By geoffrobinson, at
Fri Oct 14, 07:39:00 AM:
There is a connection to anti-Semitism. I think Europe's spiritual decline is affecting their thinking.
By , at
Fri Oct 14, 07:45:00 AM:
" Gerhard Schroeder owed his last three years in office (at least) to pandering to anti-Americanism"
This is even more exaggerated than the claim that Bush was only reelected due to hyped fear of terrorism.
"German aid to help the Gulf coast was much appreciated,"
Was it? Who reported about it? Did you? Did the MSM? Why does the US media and blogosphere write only negatively about Germany?
I feel offended by your statement that our "society pretends to moral superiority." You still have not given any evidence of a large percentage of Germans claiming such moral superiority. You only mention anti-American statements by some German politicians.
Do you really think Germans boast more about moral values and being the greatest nation than Americans?
By Gordon Smith, at
Fri Oct 14, 08:27:00 AM:
Once upon a time, say five and half years ago, America enjoyed wide support from Europe.
In the aftermath of 9/11, Europe came to our aid, and NATO came together to depose the Taliban.
Then George W. Bush chose to invade a nation that had nothing to do with 9/11, and a lot of the Europeans got pissed.
And, to be fair, it's not just Europe. George W. Bush's administration's foreign relations have been a disaster across the globe.
It's strange that you'd blame the world for getting angry rather than blame the administration for alienating over half the planet.
By TigerHawk, at
Fri Oct 14, 08:37:00 AM:
Jorg,
I defer to your judgments about German politics. Perhaps Schroeder's almost constant complaining about the United States (see the linked article, for example, but there are many, many other examples) during election season had nothing to do with his re-election in 2002. I, however, find it more than a little interesting that you would equate whatever Schroeder may have said with Bush's "hyped fear of terrorism." German politicians complain about a country that has not attacked them since 1945, and has done much to help them since. American politicians complain about an enemy that manifestly has attacked the United States.
Of course, much of this depends on how one feels about the reach of Islamo-fascism and the proportionality of the American response. In my considered opinion, the Bush administration has understated the threat of radical Islam so that it could justify its "guns and butter" fiscal policy, which I do not defend.
By TigerHawk, at
Fri Oct 14, 08:42:00 AM:
Screwy,
Europeans hated George Bush long before September 11. They don't like the Texas thing, the Christian thing, and the plain-talking thing. He was wildly unpopular in Europe even before he was inaugurated, and in any case long before the invasion of Iraq. And puh-lease do not give me the John Kerry bit about us offers of help from NATO -- until the Europeans build themselves a blue water navy and buy a lot of transport planes, they are not going to be very useful in situations where a speedy response is called for.
By Cardinalpark, at
Fri Oct 14, 09:55:00 AM:
TH -
Post Cold War Germany has returned to many of its original historical moorings, save for militarism. In the absence of militarism, it does nonetheless long to lead Europe, and a political tool to achieve European leadership is to adopt anti Americanism. You are right and Jorg is dissembling about political anti Americanism in Germany-- in particular, I note Jorg didn't jump ahead with any pro-Americanism, merely critiqued your perspective. SO I would not defer to him on the topic unless he presents better evidence. The evidence so far suggests profound rivalry with America. Profound.
As to anti-Semitism in Germany, this should come as no surprise. There is no need to enter into a long diatribe here. It extends to France and other parts European as well. Goodness. Someone taking the other side of that debate is holding a weak had given the historical record.
The next facile tool is the anti Zionism doesn't equal anti semitism canard. Horse Puckey! Anti Zionism call for the destruction of Israel. It ain't a critique, or an ask for a modification of borders. Anti zionism is exactly what it means. And if you call for the destruction or dissolution of Israel, that means you are an antisemite. Many Germans (though not all certainly) would love to see Israel vanish. It's another bite at the apple, no ovens or army required.
And SH, as for your comments, the list can go on forever, but let's start with this:
Since Saddam was paying off France, Russia, the UN an Germany, why should an American give a damn of their corrupt tempers are a little bent. I am thrilled they're anggry. I am disappointed that they aren't ashamed and embarrassed, and so should a moralist UN Lover pacifist...
By , at
Fri Oct 14, 10:46:00 AM:
"German politicians complain about a country that has not attacked them since 1945, and has done much to help them since."
Does eternal gratitude (which we should have) mean that we have to do whatever your administration tells us to do?
Is that your understanding of democracy and friendship?
Supporting you in Afghanistan and Enduring Freedom was apparently not enough for you. We should have have joined you in attacking Iraq on the basis of WMD, although we (as most of the world and many US experts) were not convinced that it was necessary?
Should we donate money to your space travels to Mars as well?
When you say "jump", should I jump right away or kiss your feet first? Is this what you expect from allies?
Cardinal
"I note Jorg didn't jump ahead with any pro-Americanism, merely critiqued your perspective."
I don't like jumping. And I don't need to. Just read my blog.
Tigerhawk accussed the German society of pretending to moral superiority. He still has not given evidence.
Nobody has to prove one's innocence. It is up to those who make accusations to provide evidence of guilt.
It's your turn, guys!
Again, Tigerhawk and Cardinalpark went on the offensive the new accusations rather than providing evidence.
Cardinalpark, Saddam did not pay of Germany. And why do you talk about Israel?
Why do you change the subject? For lack of arguments!
Apparently the worse the situation in Iraq is, the more angry you are at Germany for not joining you in this project. Psychologically, this makes sense.
If everything would be going fine in Iraq, you conservative bloggers would just ignore Germany or laugh about German opposition to the war, but since this is not the case, you are angry and write about German anti-Americanism all the time.
I know you are angry at me and want to spin my words and accuse me of all things evil. Therefore, let me stress that I wish you success in Iraq.
I wrote on our blog that it is obviously in Europe's vital interest that the US led coalition succeeds in establishing stability and democracy in Iraq and does not allow Iraq to be the training base for the next 9/11 terrorists. I am just concerned that you are giving up:
http://atlanticreview.org/archives/139-guide.html
By Daniel in Brookline, at
Fri Oct 14, 03:41:00 PM:
Jorg: You might want to calm down a bit.
Even in the face of German help to the United States in times of need -- welcome though that is -- it is disturbing, to Americans, when prominent German politicians and columnists express such profound anti-Americanism (and, from context, seem to think that it's perfectly reasonable to write and talk that way).
You might want to consider that, here in America, we've faced unbridled, unceasing anti-Americanism -- from those we considered our allies, no less! -- for some time now. Germany has not been reticent in this respect; on the contrary, as TigerHawk points out, Germans have been among our harshest critics.
And some of us get tired of being lectured on our insensitivity, of all things, by Europeans. (As others here have pointed out, many Americans are descended from people who fled Europe, and have not forgotten this, nor regretted it. Many other Americans remember WWI and WWII all too well, when tens of thousands of American lives were sacrificed to restore peace to Europeans.)
One final note. Yes, you have a right to expect TigerHawk to be consistent. But he doesn't have to agree with you. This is his site, upon which we are mere guests. He can say what he likes. (We, of course, are free to take our business elsewhere. But it's not polite to tell someone to shut up in his own house.)
respectfully,
Daniel in Brookline
By Cardinalpark, at
Fri Oct 14, 04:46:00 PM:
Jorg:
Germany's recent leadership, as reflected in its past election of Gerhard Schroeder, has embraced antiAmericanism and in particular a moral "superiority" as you and TH put it that has been reflected in both word and policy. That is the evidence. In Schroeder's oft-reported view, American foreign policy and doemstic economic policy is morally inferior to German foreign policy and social welfare policy. He said it, and flagrantly campaigned on it. What more evidence do you require exactly? Personally, I think he is dead wrong and could care less about his sense of German morality.
As for the reference to Israel, I was responding to another commmenter.
In addition, I think things are going exceedlingly well for the US in Iraq, not poorly as you seem to think. Historically, brilliantly actually. So my responses to you are in no way motivated by any lack of confidence in our progress in Iraq. Other commenters would probably agree that I do not lack for confidence in our project there.
I am not the least bit angry with you Jorg. I just think you made some comments with which I disagreed rather strongly. That's just fine.
I merely think you are deluding yourself if you don't think German political culture has been infected with anti-Americanism and a sense of moral superiority. As a political matter, Germany is unhappy, and she is blaming the US, Iraq, Israel and anybody else she can for 10%+ unemployment, a stagnant economy and a general malaise. Germany needs a rebirth at the moment, and her political leadership is incapable of midwifing it.
Certainly Germany need not do anything the US asks. Germany is its own country. I sometimes think she would be much better off hanging in there with the US, but again, its Germany's leadership's decision. Frankly, I value German allegiance much less than the media does. As I said in an earlier post, Germany is a rival. But whatever.
In addition, Germany was no great help in Afghanistan. Only once the issue was settled did Germany join. Small matter.
I am also quite familiar with German contruction engineers and their work on behalf of Saddam in the building of significant protective infrastructure (bunkers) to protect him. When I say Saddam bought off Germany, I merely opine on German business dealings with Saddam. By no means was Germany in the vanguard here. France and Russia were far worse. But Germany was not exempt. Whether it influeced their foreign policy, I will not comment. Certainly, I would argue that it profoundly impacted French foreign policy, and UN policy.
By TigerHawk, at
Sun Oct 16, 08:56:00 AM:
The other issue that Jorge raises is the German requirement that we acknowledge that "German society" and "the Nazis" were somehow unrelated. If there is one thing that the histories of the era make clear, the Nazis could not have come to power without massive support among the German people. And they weren't exactly coy about what they intended to do once they were in power. Just as that fact makes British and French appeasement during the late 1930s inexcusable, so it supports my characterization of German society.
And, of course, my reference to Germany as the "twentieth century's most violent society" was not limited to the Nazi era. There is the little matter of World War I (for which I concede the question of German war guilt is far more debatable).
By , at
Sun Oct 16, 09:24:00 PM:
Germany didn't join the coalition in Iraq mostly because it couldn't really have been of much help. It has liitle in the way of military help to offer and it has no money.
Germany's refusal to join the coalition was less a matter of believing that it was wrong to attack Iraq than it was embarrassment at having to admit that there wasn't much Germany could do to help. Schroeder couldn't really admit that to the German public.
On the matter of Israel, Germans seem to think that if Israel and jews are problems for others, i.e. the palestinians, that somehow excuses their own treatment of the jews in Germany and elsewhere in Europe. It's guilt that underlies much of the anti-semitism in Germany today. Guilt and resentment.
