Saturday, July 12, 2008
Advice sought: Apple, or PC?
So, I need to get a new desk top computer at home. The main uses will be blogging and activities related thereto (including photography and perhaps video), reading stuff online, keeping track of financial matters, and perhaps gaming (I'd like to play the Command and Conquer games networked with my son). Within reason, cost at the margin is not a big deal, but I like to get a good value as much as anybody.
The threshold question is Apple, or PC? If the latter, which leading brand is giving the best service/value combination these days?
Important background: I work on my company-supplied Dell laptop, and will continue to do so. I have never used either Vista or Apple's operating system. My wife has an Apple, but she does not like it very much (indeed, I am going to give it a test drive later in the weekend and see if I agree). On the other hand, my sister and daughter are Applie groupies.
All input is welcome.
30 Comments:
By 
, at
Sat Jul 12, 03:44:00 PM:
If you decide to stay with a PC you may want to look at a company called VelocityMicro.
The custom build some high quality machines and really are customer service oriented and their builds are almost a work of art when you look at the insides of the computer and the care they route and bundle all the cables and such.
Since they are a smaller company they may have the Vista exemption and still be able to install XP.
By , at
Sat Jul 12, 04:06:00 PM:
I love my Apple Powerbook. My work laptop is an IBM and of course runs Windows. I have the Microsoft Office suite for Apple installed on the home PC and haven't had any "compatability" problems sharing files between work and home systems.
I have to admit that the Apple fetish is an emotional thing. I like the way it looks and feels and it the operating system is very intuitive. That said, they are more expensive, and you need to decide whether the cult of Apple is worth the extra $$.
By 
Anthony, at
Sat Jul 12, 04:06:00 PM:
Just to supply a data point, I'm for the first time seriously considering switching from PC to Mac, and I've been strictly PC-based since DOS 3. Office 2007 and Vista have soured me on Microsoft that much. What's making me hold back is finding Mac versions of certain programs I rely on.
By Dawnfire82, at
Sat Jul 12, 04:17:00 PM:
I hate hate HATE Macintosh. Can't play most games, unfriendly to modular upgrades, and designed for pop culture nonsense. (I don't care how easy it is to share photos and music; that's not why I have a computer) And the elitist, smug assholes who buy them and rave about how superior their toys are to my toys (and, vicariously, they are to me) is infuriating.
My laptop is Alienware. Expensive, but it arrives fine-tuned. Never had a problem with it. Never had a problem with Vista Ultimate either, (which came with it) though I've heard others complain.
My desktop is scratch-built and customized by me for optimal performance of what I needed it to do. Something you can't do with Macs...
By , at
Sat Jul 12, 04:58:00 PM:
I do not hate windows. The people who use PC's do not infuriate me. These are after all just thinking tools. So windows computers are fine with me. There are people I love who use them. In fact I recommend them, especially to my competitors.
But for me, I like well designed things and I can see the difference. So TH, as much as I like you and what your are doing here, I don't care what computer you use. I will continue to use a Mac as long as they make them, as I have for the last 20 years. I use a powerbook with an intel processor and it will run windows as smoothly and quickly as any PC notebook, if I wanted to. I also like the way Apple has managed security issues with regular software updates (which my computer finds out about automatically), and the fact that there isn't much out there in terms of malicious viruses. I also like the fact that I don't have to fuss with it much. I used to soup up my computers but now I just want them to work really well right out of the box.
But the best thing is the high quality of the design---not just the eye candy but the thought behind the way things operate. It shows depth of research into how people use their computers.
But it's not for everyone. I gave my brother, who just turned 75, my old desktop mac but it didn't work for him, who has used windows since it was introduced. As he said to me, "at my age, change is not so appealing."
By Whiskey, at
Sat Jul 12, 05:07:00 PM:
Dawnfire, Macs ARE overpriced, but that's part of the marketing appeal.
What you do get out of the value equation with Macs is that Apple does the hardware and software integration for you, so unlike Windows machines there are not tons of drivers to download to make things that come with the computer work (video boards, etc).
If you want a minimal hassle of just using your computer, without worries about drivers and viruses, Macs rule.
You just have to be careful about buying them to receive full value. I like to buy just discontinued models, which often have heavy discounts. Say a new CPU speed is offered, buy the older model which is functionally the same at say, $400 or less prices.
The best buy right now is the Mac Mini. Easy to use and set up, QUIET! and fun to use, it will do email, blogging, games, pretty much all you need. The screen is not included, that's a plus, because if your monitor blows up, just buy a new one, or borrow, or what have you. I don't like the all-in-one Imacs for that reason. The more expensive Mac Mini IMHO is the better one.
ANOTHER alternative is Linux. Ubuntu works great, with WINE (Windows Emulator) you can run a lot of Windows programs, including older games, and for those who like to do things like rip DVDs for video Ipod use, or just rip soundtracks, anything multimedia, Ubuntu Linux rules, and is fairly easy to install.
[Linux CAN be hard to install, it's best to either get it pre-installed, ala the Asus EE laptops, or have another computer around to ask questions on forums since there's bound to be people around who have the same problem. Example: my Toshiba Laptop with the default Ubuntu 7.04 install had no sound. I followed the forums to find a work-around to get sound working. Not real fun but nothing rocket science either.]
The point with Linux is that you can have the reliability and power of Mac OS X, with TONS of FREE! Software like Open Office (creates PDFs natively), GIMP (Photoshop replacement), R Stat program, tons of Blog posting software, etc. WITHOUT Mac's high cost. Bonus, you can apply "themes" that make your system look like Windows or the Mac or anything else you can think of.
The trade-off is time, you'll probably spend time making one or two things (often, sound cards) work they way they should. For that investment you get about maybe $500 or more cheaper than comparable Macs, without Vista's resource hogging stuff (choose your own desktop and Window Manager, including some that are both pretty and FAST!). Once Linux is installed, it's pretty easy to use. Ubuntu has a GUI app for adding/removing software, detailed instructions on how to do it on their Wikis and forums (better support IMHO than either Microsoft or Apple).
But if you just want to get stuff done on a Desktop, blogging/office/e-mail etc, get a Mac Mini. Install Mac version of Open Office (free!). [Yes, you CAN install tons of Open Source software packages for the Mac, they run under the "X11" environment and don't look as pretty as the "Cocoa" native Mac interface, however they get the job done and the cost to you is ... Free. I like Free.]
By , at
Sat Jul 12, 07:27:00 PM:
My $0.02:
PCs: If you go this route, get an XP system. Vista 1) moved everything around, 2) is a resource hog, 3) is a hassle. Vista IS more secure than a current XP install, so it would be a bad thing to keep your tax filings on, but if you're primarily doing blogging and video this won't be much of an issue.
Advantages: easy to use and does its job, familiar, most supported.
Disadvantages: You can't run XP forever, probably don't want to run vista, minor stability problems.
Macs: Once you get the design philosophy of "it's probably the easy way" and adjust to directory extensions moving right, they're somewhat intuitive. A quick changeover primer (this is what finder. spotlight, etc do) gets you up to speed fast. Consider buying on a student discount (-10% and free stuff) if you can. For desktop macs, convertible parts shouldn't be a problem, unlike in the laptops, unless you get one of the single-units; ask before you buy.
Advantages: Very stable due to the nature of the operating system, things "just work," can easily boot multiple environments (such as windows.)
Disadvantages: the Mac Tax (~15% or so, depending on whom you ask), changeover disorientation for some.
Ubuntu Linux: Heapings helpings of free, good dev support, a nice starter linux environment. Does what you want it to and nothing more, though you will have to venture to the command line eventually.
Advantages: Even more stable than Mac, dirt cheap, lots of community support.
Disadvantages: making it talk to you peripherals can be a pain, less gaming support.
My solution: boot multiple environments, mac for general stuff, windows when I need to game.
By beadlizard, at
Sat Jul 12, 08:20:00 PM:
Can't get XP now and it won't be supported at all in a few years. Gaius over at Blue Crab Blvd. is handy with ubuntu, etc. Most of my friends in the software industry are switching over to MacBook Pro with the Intel Core 2 Duo. It makes skype better and you can run multiple environments.
I use a laptop with a docking station and flat screen instead of having a separate desktop computer. --Syl
By , at
Sat Jul 12, 09:49:00 PM:
TH, I use a two-year-old MacBook Pro and Adobe CS3 and Apple Final Cut Studio, for work in graphics and video. Before this, I had an iMac DV that I ran from 1999 - 2005 without it being completely obsolete.
I like the feel of the keyboard and the quickness with which it runs those apps.
DF82, Can't we all just get along? :) Just like photos and music, gaming is also pop culture nonsense. I use my Mac for work and a console for gaming.
By , at
Sat Jul 12, 09:59:00 PM:
If you haven't the time or inclination to resolve occasional configuration issues, perhaps a Mac might be best for you since Apples minimize the need to deal with such issues, and Apple support is rated higher than that of all PC manufacturers. As others have mentioned, you can run Windows on a Mac nowadays, and you don't even to have to reboot (using software like VM Fusion or Parallels, which are in the $60-$80 range) - you can have Windows windows side by side with Mac OS X windows.
But if you don't want the hassle of unlearning the Windows way of doing things, then stick with a PC. You can get a perfectly fine PC for your needs running Windows (I'd happily stick with XP if you can) for dirt cheap - around $400, so why pay more?
I like Ubuntu, but unless you buy the computer with Ubuntu installed, you're likely to have some configuration issues that will require that you spend time Googling and then typing cryptic commands, although most issues can be resolved this way.
I'd definitely install Open Office regardless of what you decide rather than buy Microsoft Office.
By David H Dennis, at
Sat Jul 12, 10:05:00 PM:
The overwhelming majority of Mac users love their machines, so it's interesting that your wife does not. You might want to ask why since I think her answer might be revealing.
I'm a Mac-only user since the early days of MacOS X, and I would summarize the appeal of Apple stuff like this: Just like people like designer furniture or designer clothes, the Mac is a designer computer. Instead of being slapped together from the components that happened to be cheapest this week, someone asked, "How can we make this computer really nice?", and their answer was the Mac.
I think you're either the type of person who appreciates that sort of thing, or you are not. People who appreciate it tend to be in the creative professions like the arts, filmmaking and so on, and as a result Apple has a reputation as being an artist's company.
To the non-artist, I will put it this way. You have a choice. You can deal with a company that has worked very hard to create computers and devices to make you happy, or you can deal with a bunch of companies that cares more about complex business relationships than whether the resulting product is any good.
If you listen to the people who denigrate the Mac because all those mean artists are snobs who don't know what real people want, ask them if they are happy with their computer. Most of them are not.
I recommend listening to the more satisfied group of people, and rest my case.
Hope that was of interest.
D
By , at
Sat Jul 12, 10:23:00 PM:
Here is a question. I have a PC w Windows. I recently talked with a friend who is a long time Mac user, not a computer whiz, who has recently had a problem with spam e-mail. I had no advice for her, because my ISP does an EXCELLENT job of blocking spam. What is out there for a Mac user to block spam?
By Anthony, at
Sat Jul 12, 10:28:00 PM:
What is out there for a Mac user to block spam?
I don't know about Mac software, but GMail has a very good spam trapper.
By Grumpy Old Man, at
Sun Jul 13, 01:42:00 AM:
Join the cult. Get a Mac.
On a PC you have to click on "Start" to turn the thing OFF.
By , at
Sun Jul 13, 04:57:00 AM:
I hate hate HATE Linux. Can't load Photoshop, unfriendly to mere mortals, and designed for geek culture nonsense. (I don't care how easy it is to put any cheap hardware in; that's not why I have a computer) And the elitist, smug assholes who buy them and rave about how superior their toys are to my toys (and, vicariously, they are to me) is infuriating.
My laptop is a MacBookPro. Expensive, but it arrives fine-tuned. Never had a problem with it. Never had a problem with Leopard either, (which came with it) though I've heard others complain.
My desktop is scratch-built by Apple for optimal performance and arrived working out-of-the-box for what I needed it to do. Something you can't do with Linux...
By , at
Sun Jul 13, 06:51:00 AM:
TigerHawk,
A Macbook Pro or a Mac Pro will be great for your needs. I enjoy the great photo management of iPhoto, the easy to use iMovie for quick video edits and the easy to setup printing and peripherals. I'm not a blogger, so I have no idea about the blogging programs available, but many top blogs use Macs so it must be top notch.
For your gaming needs, if your version of games is Windows, run Boot Camp and Windows to play it.
By , at
Sun Jul 13, 09:44:00 AM:
Long term (since 1982) Mac guy here. Lot of heat above, not much light.
A relative recently asked me the same question. I gave him some of the same points and then just stumbled pn some articles that spoke to the objective data.
Don't remember any of them,but Google "PC vs. Mac" and I think you'll find some helpful stuff.
By , at
Sun Jul 13, 10:19:00 AM:
Why buy a desktop? Laptops are very cheap these days and much easier to move around.
By Diane Wilson, at
Sun Jul 13, 10:25:00 AM:
There have been times when Macs and PCs were equivalent values, but this isn't one of them. I just finished price-comparing four different Dell laptops (Vostro, Latitude, Precision, and XPS) versus the MacBook Pro. Configuration was 4GB RAM, T9300 Duo Intel processor, 160GB 7200RPM drive, 256MB video card, biggest screen resolution available on a 15-inch widescreen monitor, and 3-year service contract. Or as close to that configuration as possible. All four Dell models were much cheaper than Apple, by margins from $500 to $800. Consider that I'd also have to buy Parallels to run PC software on the Mac, and it becomes even less competitive. Among those Dell models, the Latitude was the best deal, and I know from experience that they're solid machines.
The idea of a Mac mini is attrative, but it hasn't had a configuration update in over two years, and it's way underpowered. Rumor is that it's an orphan, or soon to be.
I've been using Vista on 5 machines since it was released to manufacturing, about 20 months now. I love it. It's been trouble-free on Dell laptops and on home-built desktops. Most of the early problems, and most of Vista's lousy reputation, are based on driver issues, not on the operating system itself. The driver issues have mostly been resolved. XP is eXPunged, eXPired, eXParrot. But I'm not a gamer and I don't do high-end audio applications, so YMMV.
As for security, Vista wins hands-down. I've heard security pros say that Apple's security awareness is about where Microsoft was 8 years ago, which certainly isn't a ringing endorsement. As Apple's market share grows, they'll increasingly be a target for malware, and they're not ready for it.
For Vista security, leave UAC on (it's only a hassle when you're installing lots of software), use IE (runs in protected mode when UAC is on, so it reduces the "attack surface"), keep software updates current, and - most important - learn about Data Execution Protection (DEP), turn it on for everything, and trust it. It kills buffer overruns, the worst source of malware entry, and the malware writers don't have a way to get around it. Vista has other built-in security features like address space randomization (ASLR) that XP doesn't have. Vista's total security package is formidable.
Then do careful checking about anti-virus software. The major brands are so bloated and intrusive that they're not worth it. Go with something light-weight (I use Microsoft OneCare, on those machines where I think I need antivirus protection) or nothing at all if you're reasonably safe in your browsing habits.
By Unknown, at
Sun Jul 13, 12:20:00 PM:
You try the Mac and get frustrated and think that it sucks, then odds are you are trying to use it wrong (it's pretty common that someone will try a Mac for little while, find that it doesn't work like Windows, and then get frustrated and leave). It's not a case of it being wrong, just different. It's always worth going to the Apple Store, explaining that you are coming from a Windows background, and can they show you the basics of how things work.
The Apple Stores are probably the best bit about going with the Mac from a general use point of view. You can go online and book an appointment for one on one sessions on how to use the Mac or trips to the genius bar to get support/repairs. It is also a no-pressure environment for checking them out and finding out more about them.
As for your uses, for blogging it should be fine just using your browser, though I highly recommend MarsEdit by Red Sweater Software as a desktop client. For photography and video, iLife offers you quite a lot out of the box, though iMovie 08 is a little weak if you're wanting more than the most basic of video tools. If you're willing to spend a bit more you can get the very good Final Cut Express.
For reading stuff online, you can't go far wrong with Safari, though there's also Firefox if you need the plugins. Financial matters may be a little tricky, there are many applications out there, but I believe only Quicken is cross platform. Other personal finance apps include MoneyWell and Cha-Ching. Gaming wise, C&C 3 is available for the Mac, but if you're wanting any of the older games you'll need to install Windows on your Mac (at which point it functions just like any other Windows PC).
As for price, depends what you're looking for. Apple competes in 6 very distinct markets: Workstation, All-in-one desktop, Compact Desktop, Professional laptop, general consumer laptop, high performance ultraportable. In these areas Apple is usually very competitive, though it varies depending on whether they've just updated the specs or not. You'll see many people talking about a "Mac tax" and comparing an iMac to a desktop tower PC and citing a few $100 price difference. The problem is that they're not really comparable, and when you compare the iMac to All-in-one's from Dell, HP and Gateway, you find that Apple actually offers the best bang for your buck.
Anyway, the best advice I can give you if you do go for a Mac, is look at all the Mac software that is available. Many people don't really give 3rd party software that much thought when they use Windows, but when they come to the Mac they have their eyes opened to the quality of applications available.
By Mister Ron, at
Sun Jul 13, 12:23:00 PM:
It's interesting that the PC advocates say that if you buy a Mac you'll have to spend extra money on something to run Windows on your Mac. Yet, doing it the other way around is simply not an option at all.
I have a Mac Pro, Macbook, and others. I work with Dells all the time as a technician, and frankly, can't abide them.
The "security through obscurity" myth about Macs is just that -- a myth.
Once you "unlearn" the difficult ways of doing things on a PC, you'll find Macs are extremely intuitive, fun, and time saving.
By Diane Wilson, at
Sun Jul 13, 02:21:00 PM:
"It's interesting that the PC advocates say that if you buy a Mac you'll have to spend extra money on something to run Windows on your Mac. Yet, doing it the other way around is simply not an option at all."
Sometimes, it really isn't an option. Two cases, both of which apply to me:
1. I have a lot of software already licensed for Windows. If I buy a new Windows system, I can just transfer the licenses. If I buy a Mac, and forego the option to run Windows on it, then I have to re-license all that software, or buy equivalents. That adds a lot of $$$ to the price of switching.
2. Some stuff just requires Windows. For example, I develop software using Microsoft's Visual Studio. Much of it requires Microsoft SQL Server. These are not cross-platform tools, and "use the Mac equivalent" means re-basing my career on skills I haven't learned, and targeting a much smaller job market. "Doing it the other way" isn't an option; I have to run Windows.
By , at
Sun Jul 13, 02:49:00 PM:
Here's a link to a cute little video, "The Truth About Macs":
http://tinyurl.com/42ghy
By Andrew X, at
Sun Jul 13, 03:21:00 PM:
I'll go to bat for Vista -
I have had it since last September, thru the SP1 update. It has not crashed once. There have been three failures to re-boot after an update, all three of which I went to a restore point with no hassle at all.
Remember five or so years ago? What was the beef with Windows? Security, security security. The kernel sucks, too easy to crack, headlines….”Beware the Storm Worm, Global Virus, etc”. Haven’t heard a peep about global worms of late. They are out there, and they are being stopped. And now people gripe about UAC, which demands maybe five or six extra clicks a day (horrors!) and which any fool can shut off in ten seconds, and the “huge 20gig footprint” of Vista, hogging all that space on my 320 gig hard drive. Blah blah. (Gramm was right, we are a nation of whiners.)
I think MS’s Vista mistakes were more in PR and Marketing than design. 80% of their error was the box specs: 1 Gig of RAM, 128 Megs of VideoRAM, and a 1.0 gig processor. Puh-freekin’-leeze. Don’t even think about Vista unless you double all three of those specs. Had MS done that from the get-go, and coordinated with outside software vendors better, I think Vista would be being seen in a whole different light right now.
So I like Vista. I got no beefs with it.
By Roy Lofquist, at
Sun Jul 13, 03:44:00 PM:
Operating systems. I have used a countless number of them over the last 45 years. Countless meaning I have the normal trepidations about old timers disease for a person my age. I actually worked inside two or three of them.
To me the PC/Mac debate comes down to one thing and one thing only - the mouse. A one-button mouse makes me feel like I am wearing shackles. I am currently using a five button mouse which really helps with a few games. No context menus (right button), no scroll wheel - It's like having marbles in your mouth.
By Anthony, at
Sun Jul 13, 03:52:00 PM:
No context menus (right button), no scroll wheel - It's like having marbles in your mouth.
Exactly. This is one of the biggest stumbling blocks I have to switching. Though I've heard there are two-button Mac-mice that give me my beloved right-click.
By , at
Sun Jul 13, 10:00:00 PM:
ALL Mac mice made in the last five years or so are effectively 4 button mice. Right click works perfectly if you turn it on in the mouse preference panel. If four buttons aren't enough, there are many third party mice with more.
And you can run Vista on modern Macs. Comparing Macs with PCs using the same processor, while running Vista, Macs run very, very slightly faster! Not that you'd notice.
By , at
Mon Jul 14, 12:59:00 AM:
Having used both PCs and Macs for my almost entire professional career (starting in 1987), PCs have always out-perfomed Macs, even if the price differential is not factored in.
This has not changed: regarding buying a new video editing machine last week, I was offered the choice of a used 2-year old MAC, a very decent machine, and a new PC (running XP) with about twice the capability. The Mac sold on eBay for $1200; the PC was $900 (both w/o monitors)
So get a PC and put XP on it. I get my PCs from a local vendor who builds them to my specs. As for national retailers, I've had decent luck with the Dell Pro line -- the Home line is terrible though. MPC used to be good, but my last experience with them was bad.
C. Owen Johnson
By , at
Mon Jul 14, 03:50:00 AM:
What makes Mac so attractive is the integration and ease of use once you get the hang of it. Buy a printer and most likely the Mac OS already has the driver for it. Same for almost all USB devices. Real plug and play. More expensive? A bit. But you get what you pay for.
Not dealing with OS crashes and the constant virus and mal-ware is a joy.
The fastest PC laptop and desktops are my Macs. Each has boot camp with a Windows partition. While faster than a comparably equipped PC's, the same physical computer is still considerably faster booting, launching programs and getting on-line in Mac OS than in native Windows. The mouse gets a little time to get used to, if that is a hassle just get a Windows mouse. It will just fine and have the full functionality of the mouse.
Mac OS already has built text editors, mail programs and other utilities. One piece of advise, while you ought to buy a Mac with the fastest CPU and graphics card you can afford (and available for the particular computer) go cheap on the Apple built in memory and get the minimum the factory ships. Apple is a bit greedy on RAM. Buy your own from Kingston etc and install the maximum you can afford on your own. Sony is also like Apple in that regard.
There is an application called Parallels that lets you run Windows
while in Mac OS. Unless you have a fast processor and a lot of RAM it is slow (running Windows). Best to tweak Windows for the fastest performance by running MSCONFIG and keeping the start-up apps to the minimum and on the My Computer the various adjustments for performance.
Slow, but tolerable for Office and Outlook. For games, I saw an app at Best Buy that claims to let you run a number of Windows games on a Mac without loading Windows on the machine (Intel CPU's only). Did not buy it so I can't comment on how good it is.
Finally spend the bucks if you go Mac and get an app called Disk Warrior. It is the only disk utility for and OS that I have ever seen that really does what is claims to do. I had an old IMac and it revived a dead computer. Note Steve Jobs, license the app and include it in the next OS version.
By , at
Mon Jul 14, 08:08:00 PM:
Having a look into a case or two of Dells or even HP's I shudder at the cheesy wiring. It is indicative of the quality of the product. I am typing this on an 8 year old G4 digital audio ,(466 mghz), that is every bit as fast on OS X as the 2.5 gig Dell the house uses for workstations is on XP. (Unlike many of you commenters I have no trouble negotiating my way around on XP, it isn't that hard to use both systems). I'm slower on Virtual PC than they are, ( obviously), but I am totally unconcerned about worms, viri, spyware etc. I have seen our boxes go down for days with a trojan. Mine don't. As far as price, there are no macs in the 399 with a monitor market. just like there are no 2.99 a pound New York Strip Steaks. You get what you pay for and... when you resell your mac in 3-4 years you get a real good buck for it. Jobs is getting his revenge on Gates for the theft of the last century and how. When was the last time Microsoft innovated anything. They don't even intimidate well any more.
